[FT] Fw: On-line Bible Study: What About Government?
johnredman at bikerider.com
Sun Jan 4 20:59:57 PST 2009
As always, I have been unclear in my 'leading'. What I MEANY to condemn
as evil was coercive government. The government of Friends, as far as I
know, is voluntary. With the case of 'reading out', well, the read out
parties might feel offended but they are not harmed. Violence is the
difference between evil earthly Governments and the Lions Club. A certain
Cape Cod Meeting (E. Sandwich) HAS called the police, invoking violence,
and I pray for their souls for that sin and NEYM is still suffering from
that episode 3 years later. Living IN this world but not OF this world is
a huge challenge and I'm not in agreement that Merton (who was
electrocuted by a faulty fan) managed that completely, either. Wendell
Barry, in The Long-Legged House, writes around the simple premise of
making oneself obedient to ones own conscience. I can say no more.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Wilson"
To: "Friends Theology"
Subject: RE: [FT] Fw: On-line Bible Study: What About Government?
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 21:14:24 -0500
John Redman may be right that government is to be avoided at all
cost. I really don't know how you can do that. In the US government
touches every aspect of life. Not paying taxes does not free us from
services and/or abuses of government. I don't know what it means to
"to live from the heart." My observation is that where there is more
than one person present a pecking order and alliances will emerge and
some kind of power will form and somebody or bodies will disagree
with the way things are shaping up and will put up resistance sooner
or later. Are we to live a monastic life like Thomas Merton? But
even there in the monastic setting in rural Kentucky there
were expectations placed on the brothers - a form of government.
Would Yearly Meetings, Quarterly Meetings and even Monthly Meetings
be better off if they were layed down? They are a form of
government. Some of the ugliest and I think evil fights I have
experienced took place on the Yearly Meeting floor over the authority
and interpretation of scripture concerning social values that won't
stay in the closet or out of abortion clinics and the authority of
the yearly meeting to speak for all the monthly meetings. Silent
waiting on the Spirit in search for God's will is a wonderful thing
and can work so that a consensus can be found but often times does
not work because God has given us different degrees of "light" and
from the light that each has acquired or nurtured we cannot see how
we could possibly be wrong. Often as not Friends revert to majority
rule. Our Quaker history is full of stories of Friends being read
out of meeting.
Like Friend John I sometimes (maybe more than sometimes) question how
inspired by God some of the great personalities in the Old and New
Testaments were. I do not doubt that they were seeking God's will
but I suspect the human will formed their interpretation of God's
will just as it does ours in the 21st century. My hope and faith is
that God's grace is sufficient to forgive me of my ignorance and
arrogance. At best I see in the mirrow demly and I suspect that those
who came before us did not see any better than we do.
I appreciate the insights that Andrew, Samuel, Joe, Julia, John and
others share. I am enriched. My concern is that none of us get to
believing that we have it all figured. In my mind that is when we
are fartherest from the Truth.
> From: jewen at micronetsystems.net
> To: friends-theology at quakerchristian.net
> Subject: Re: [FT] Fw: On-line Bible Study: What About Government?
> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 06:21:29 -0500
> Thanks, Joe. Say more about the dishonest judges, Samuel's sons: in
> were they dishonest? Does this dishonesty arisefrom the nature of
the job of
> being judges or does it arise out of their own character? What does
> to us about corrupt leadership today? How did the Israelites deal
> problem of Samuel's sons? How do we or ought we to deal with the
> corrupt leadership today? Is John Redman right? Is our only option
> down all governments and live from the heart alone?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Ginder" <joe.ginder at lbfc.org>
> To: "'A list for discussing Friends theology.'"
> <friends-theology at quakerchristian.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 12:18 AM
> Subject: RE: [FT] Fw: On-line Bible Study: What About Government?
> > Julia Ewen writes:
> >> But even in Samuel apparently not ALL forms of government are
> >> bad. Monarchy is bad. That is clear. But ever since their
> >> Exodus from Egypt, the Hebrews were living under the rule of
> >> judges.
> > Julia makes a good point about the Israelites having government
> > having a king. In the time of the judges, there was weak
> > However, while the demand of the Israelites for a king was
unholy, as it
> > grew out of a desire to be like the other nations along with the
> > that Samuel's sons were dishonest judges, it is not true that
> > condemns monarchy as a form of government. On the contrary, Jesus
> > announce the kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God, of which he is
> > anointed king. His reign will never end. Isaiah 9:6-7 come to
> > What was evil about Israel's desire for a king was that they were
> > God as their king. The time of the judges is certainly not
> > ideal in any way. Instead, it was a time in which "everyone did
as he saw
> > fit". The result was not pleasing.
> > Having a good king is a good thing. There is really only one
> > for
> > the job, and he's got it. That's why early Christians would not
> > "Kyrios
> > Caesar".
> > --Joe
> > _______________________________________________
> > Friends-Theology mailing list
> > Friends-Theology at quakerchristian.net
> > http://quakerchristian.net/mailman/listinfo/friends-theology
> Friends-Theology mailing list
> Friends-Theology at quakerchristian.net
It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. Get
your account now.
Friends-Theology mailing list
Friends-Theology at quakerchristian.net
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
More information about the Friends-Theology